Increasingly, I think that these assorted "shaped bluestones" had nothing much to do with one another, and that maybe they are all that's left of a collection of stones on which the builders did experiments with stone shaping techniques and tools..... and I'm not sure that there's any evidence that this phase of "bluestone sculpture" was any earlier than the phase of "sarsen sculpture". Just because some bluestones are thought to have been placed in some settings prior to the arrival of the sarsens at the site, that doesn't mean that the bluestone shaping was older rather than later.
57 comments:
The recumbent sarsen stone 59 has a quite an impressive worked /groove channel too .
Brian,
If Stonehenge was a Roman stone working factory, there wont be any questions about these shaped stones. If Stonehenge was a Medieval stone working factory, there wont be any questions about these shaped stones. The only reason why there are questions and debates about these shaped stones is because some 'eminent archeologists' tell us Neolithic people some 5000 years ago (and some 2000 years before any recorded history) shaped these stones for reasons unknown to us.
Stonehenge existed for more than 5000 years. But only the Romans and Medieval people present at Stonehenge are known to had the tools, skills and utility to shape stones. It 'makes sense' they shaped these stones.
There should be an addendum to Occam's Razor! Between competing explanations, the ones that 'make sense' deserve greater consideration.
Kostas
Geo and others have already demonstrated from all over the world that Neolithic people had the capacity to shape stones -- to a limited degree. All you need to shape a softish stone is a lump of harder stone and a lot of muscle power and patience. For a hard stone you need an even harder stone. Try it for yourself!
Kostas -- what "makes sense" to you might not make sense to anybody else...
Kostas ,the dressing of the stones at Stonehenge hardly required much skill. The erection required some engineering skill though .If you want to see skill in engraving stone why not have a look at the earlier Knowth macehead or for stone work the corbelling of Newgrange if it's artistry the even earlier Chauvet , mind you it's continental and we never did match them for sophistication . Whilst accepting that the britons of 5000 years ago were knuckle draggers in comparison with the rest of the world I would still be interested in your take on the Egyptian pyramids , natural ? Roman ? medieval ? Alien ?
Brian,
You can knock stones together to shape them, but what for?
you write,
“what "makes sense" to you might not make sense to anybody else...”
I agree! And that is precisely the reason why we need honest and unfiltered discussions! And may the “best sense” win!
Kostas
The pre-eminent field archaeologist, Leslie Grinsell, whom I knew and respected and accompanied as a young person on some of his barrow-hunting expeditions, observed in a book written in 1958 that a concentration of bluestone chippings had already been noted near the west end of the Stonehenge Landscape Neolithic Cursus.
I'll tell you a funny story. Some years ago my wife and i went to a country auction sale in the wilds of northern Sweden. One of the items that came up for sale was a rather complicated piece of machinery that probably had something to do with agriculture. the seller and the auctioneer had no idea what it was. So there was a big debate with all the members of the farming public who were there as well -- and still nobody had a clue what it was for. So in the end the auctioneer just called it "apparaten" -- which means "the apparatus." It was all very hilarious -- and in the end there was good bidding for it, and it went for a very good price.
The message is that something can exist even if we don't know what it is, when it was made and what it was for....
Can anyone (and Geo Cur may be from the right part of the U.K.) tell us the almost-link between Stump 66, The Rolling Stones, and Billy Connolly?
We mustn't forget the likelihood that woodworking techniques were carried on within the Stonehenge Landscape, to the NE of Stonehenge,at Woodhenge and within the Durrington Walls Henge monument.
Brian,
I have no problem not knowing. My problem is when we make up stories and claim its knowledge!
Further, if we have explanations that can explain the irrefutable facts in a sensible and consistent theory, then reason tells me we should. Rather than fabricate history.
Kostas
Tony H
Is this the same 'bluestone chippings' heap you reported at Stonehenge in an earlier post? As I recall, this heap was near the Car Park. What more can you tell me about that? In what geographic direction, relative to the Avenue, was this? West of the Avenue? How close to the Avenue?
Kostas
Dear Tony
Surely those are Stones's stones as discussed at great length in Ixer and Bevins 2010 in the ferret club mag!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jean-Robert Sabot
Tony , will have to think about the stump connections but thinking along the lines of the CharlesBrown song "Route 66 ." The collection of bluestones at the cursus was found by J.F.S.Stone ,there was one piece of bluestone 3and a half inches in diameter in the souther n ditch of the cursus and a further 10 in the Fargo Planation Cursus field which was field walked after ploughing in 1947 .I think two are now believed to be rhyolitic
My thoughts exactly, Monseiur Cousteau .. but I suppose not everybody reads the literature. A concise summary of the findings maybe?
I talked to Julian Richards at Stonehenge a few years back about the grooved stones and he told me that he had measured them and None of them fit together!
PeteG
The almost-link between Stump 66, The Rolling Stones, and Billy Connolly was...............Jimmy Saville! No, Ladies & Gentlemen, I jest, the almost-link is, were the word 'Stump' to be substituted by the word 'Route' (pronounced like Kostas would pronounce it of course, viz 'rout'), the link would be the song title, as Geo Cur has alluded to recently, above. Messrs Jagger/Richard (both now well in excess of 66 years as well as in many other lifestyle facets) 'sang' the song; whilst Mr Connolly did a TV prog extolling the virtues of that American Highway.
Turning to Kostas' query, I believe the bluestone chippings were found by the SRP Team, west of the Avenue near its junction with the Heel Stone, and ESE of the car park. They were originally noticed within mole hills, perhaps as far back as Julian Richards' time with English Heritage. The SRP Team examined a selected area and, as far as I know, did find bluestone chippings as well as sarsen ones. Rob Ixer will correct me if this did not occur for bluestones. The area is all just northside of the soon-to-be-closed A344.
And Rob, they were indeed Dr JFS Stone's (blue)stones,from 1947.Apparently, over 400 chips of bluestone were also found at and around Stonehenge from 1878 to 1881 [ferret club mag/W.A.M.21,146].As Bob Dylan observed, everyone should get stoned.
PeteG
....so, if none of the grooved stones fit together, perhaps we have a true "folly" structure, of indeterminate age?
Tony H,
Thank you for the info. The bluestone chippings near the west bank of the Avenue by the Heel Stone juncture fits my hypothesis well.
If this mole hill of bluestone chippings were exclusively on the east side of the Avenue, then I'd have a problem! Why? Because I claim the Avenue was a meltwater drain channel originating at the 'Stonehenge ice basin' and the bluestone chippings were coming from the West. Debris from meltwater over the western ice embankment of the Avenue will be deposited on that side of the Avenue. Bingo!
Kostas
Kostas -- your fantastical geomorphology becomes more amazing by the day.
Kostas
In England, our Moles are quite small creatures, perhaps their American cousins are much larger. Consequently, in England there has to be more than ONE mole hill to reveal even a few chippings, bluestone or otherwise.
Following Pete's comment about Stonehenge maybe having the status of a folly, I've put a couple of posts up regarding this -- 4 Sept 2010. Tongue in cheek originally -- but maybe something to be pursued with all seriousness?
Tony H
The “mole hill of bluestone chippings” in my comment was not meant to be a description of the bluestone chippings. But only a literary reference to your comment where 'mole hill' was used. To help the reader understand that reference. I have not seen these bluestone chippings. So it is not possible for me to give a description. Perhaps you can describe its size and shape (heap, spread, flat layer, etc.). Are there any photos?
Don't make 'a mole hill out of a mountain' of evidence!
Kostas
Dr Ixer, I'm sure you know whether or not bluestone chippings WERE indeed found near the Avenue/ A344 towards the end of the SRP's work, and you may be better placed to reply to Kostas' questions above. I don't know anything about their size, shape, photos, etc, but Dr Ixer may be the man who at least knows a man who does. It was all done under the banner of the Stonehenge Riverside Project, whose final pronouncements are eagerly awaited. Where have you gone, Joe De Magio, a Nation turns its lonely heart to you.....
I have them all in my office and they are all described and written up but not published and as here is not the place to first publish these data..........
Some are described in Ixer and Bevins 2010 in the ferret club mag-a good hours read- buy and tell your friends A).(I shall not be issuing any synopses of my work/co-work so do not ask); B).(my paper not the ferret club mag which is an excellent mag and more like half a days read)
My experience of bloody stones in bloody molehills from the SH area is an unhappy one and I no longer identify random stones from random places from ill-informed members of the public who do not have enough of a sense of honour to reply when the results are not what they want, or to send their material with the correct postage, or know iron-making slag from natural rocks,or pick up 'bluestones' whilst walking their dogs on the beach so proving novel transport (always written as transportation) routes!. I wish to avoid blood-pressure tablets.
However stones from molehills turn out to be roadstone from the large West Midlands basalt quarries.
Oh the Gods I sound like a warmed-up Kostas but I do not trust the internet self-taught and self-deluded.
A bad day has suddenely brightened.
R.A.Ixer
Thank you for giving me a response to my question, Dr Ixer. So, it seems the work on the bluestones excavated near the Stonehenge car park in the last few years is not yet written up.
Rob's reference to what he has had published is, in full:-
'The petrography, affinity and provenance of lithics from the Cursus Field, Stonehenge, by Rob A Ixer and Richard E. Bevins' IN Wiltshire Studies#, Vol. 103,2010, pp 1 - 15.
# The Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Magazine
I know of no (confirmed)stones from near the SH car park other than those associated with Stone's publications and dealt with in passing in the earlier mentioned Ixer and Bevins paper.
The MPP excavations/test pits were a couple of fields away towards the end of the Stonehenge Great Cursus.
Or are these stones from the MPP Avenue excavations?? Those too I have and are also unpublished but in press-ish.
Like the promise of jam tomorrow at ten to three (in Balham) there are always rumours.
R.A. etc
Dr Ixer
This is NOT a rumour, for I have found it, Eureka! and it emanates from some part of His Master's anatomy, "He" being MPP, in a talk he gave to the assembled thongs, sorry, throngs November 2008 (yes, I know, Geo Cur, THREE YEARS AGO, but doth he not speaketh the truth?):-
My personal notes of said talk say (and for any geomorhologists/ geologists, I sat within 3 metres of Speaker):- "For the last 5 years MPP & Colin Richards have BEEN EXAMINING MOLEHILLS just near A344 and Avenue's top, and doing resistivity studies & coring [cor blimey]. An entire pavement of dressing (of Stonehenge stones) discovered. Over 50 hammer-stones and 65 THOUSAND sarcen chips in 25 square metres. These were all set out after excavation as they were in situ.[ near the site inside public viewing tents] The chips were shown to have been left where they broke after hammering. LESS THAN 30 BITS OF BLUESTONES FOUND IN THIS 25 SQUARE METRES.
So there we have it, from the horse's mouth. This lecture took place at Salisbury Guildhall on 11.11.2008. This is all I know.
Tony H,
Thank you for your reporting of the facts as you know them. Obviously, there is more to the 25 sq meters of chips on the west bank of the Avenue that needs further examination. And until more is known, we cannot know for sure what all this means. At this time, however, I have no problem with any of the facts. In line with such inquiry, here is an 'inconvenient question' for Geo Cur and all other 'human agency' advocates.
If the Stonehenge builders did not have enough stones to complete the circle, why didn't they built a smaller circle with the stones they did have?
Kostas
Good question, Kostas. Our Ancestors did seem to go to a great deal of trouble to dress the sarsen stones they did erect, they certainly didn't just "sling them up", as we say in Yorkshire.......
Even though Brian may now remind us that some of the sarsens were of poorer aesthetic appearance than others........
more than me!
Kostas ,why is “If the Stonehenge builders did not have enough stones to complete the circle, why didn't they built a smaller circle with the stones they did have? an inconvenient question ?
Have a look at “unfinished business “ thread “If you do have a plan is it likely that you will start building only to discover that you have ran out of stones ,surely you will build according to what you have and if it is necessary to get others they will always be available with a bit of effort and that would apply to all the examples above .
Human agency advocates ? ,is there anyone apart from yourself who believes otherwise ? “
I note that you have not responded to suggestions for having a look at genuine workmanship in stone like the Knowth mace , and Newgrange corbelling ,I should have also mentioned the carved stone balls from my area , and still no response on the pyramids .
Dear Brian,
Having followed your blogg for some time I am now totally confused, for there appear to be several theories relating to how the stones travelled from west Wales to Wiltshire. There also seems to be some confusion over stones with grooves and their possible use as water channels.
Anyway, I gave it some thought and my theory is this:
If you Google 'Hay Tor Granite Trackways' there is a great deal of information on how, in more modern times, people carved tram roads from the granite to allow wheeled vehicles to be moved in the direction required.
I also noted a post on your blogg relating to the discovery of cart tracks under a Dolmen at Flintbek in Germany, dated to before the movement of the bluestones.
Could the grooved bluestones have been an early version of stone tramways for the transport of heavy loads?
The chaps responsible for the intricate architectural design of the trilithons and lintels interlocking etc etc, must have felt pretty stupid or pretty sick when it suddenly dawned (or afternooned) on them that THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH SARSEN! They seem to have possessed as much sense as a 19th century half-starved Irish navvy being asked to design Brunel's Great Western Railway on his own. The jury is still out as to whether the sarsen circle was once complete. My money is on Romano-British/ Medieval farmers/ house-owners etc indulging in opportunistic pilfering of a whole W/SW segment of the circle. So far its being unfinished is just a theory, despite some modern investigations that have failed to reveal the previous presence of stones. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
BETTY O'BESE
I must at once say to you, Betty, that if you are of the Irish persuasion, I apologise unreservedly for putting some of your 19th century countrymen in a bad light, in my preceding comment. I hadn't seen your comment when I began wtiting mine, you see. Things move very fast in the bloggosphere, as I'm sure Dr Ixer would wholeheartedly agree!
But I am intrigued you say you own your own house. Do you live quite close to Stonehenge, say a mile or two to the SW/W of the (unfinished) monument? And does it have any large blocks of sarsens in it? Can we get Dr Ixer to come round and take a look, Betty? He won't mind at all......
Geo,
The question is 'inconvenient' because it flies in the face of human agency! Your response to it does nothing to answer it. Why are the stone circles of Stonehenge 'empty' and all in the same SW quarter? Unless you can account for the missing stones, the question will persist to be 'inconvenient'.
I am always open and ready to discuss Stonehenge. But I don't want to intrude into Brian's space too much with tangential topics. Suggest another venue and I'll meet you there.
Kostas
Kostas , I have already commented on the "missing stones & empty quarter " in the " Vestrafiold " thread .You didn't respond then but took it as an opportunity to reply to another part of the post with your own ideas on ice ,spread over 2 posts .
My Dear Tony H.,
You are obviously a very nice and polite gentleman, so I take no offence, but the reference to houses should be explained. In my senility I write things in the wrong order, so, to clarify, I submit the following:
I look for a man where ever I can,
And somethings I should make quite clear.
Although wrinkled and old, I'm really quite bold,
And Dr. Ixer I fancy - no fear.
As a liitle enticement to increase excitement,
There's something I really should mention.
Although lazy and fat ---- dragged in by the cat,
I have a small house and a pension.
Do you think he'd be interested?
Tony H.,
It would be good practice to form the sarsen lintel circle at ground level, to see if they fit before lifting them. I think they would have noticed if they were several uprights short of a full kit.
Regarding the thieving of the W/SW segment it is logical to loosen and drop one upright and two lintels to start. Having overcome the integrity of the ring-beam the remaining stones can then be taken one at a time, proceeding around the two open ends of the circle --- easier and safer.
Mr Tony H. thank you so much for acting as my agent. As I have explained elsewhere before, I am only too willing to help members of the 'great British public' in their quest for instant petrographical gratification. (I know people who would but the libel laws prevent me from naming names-sadly). The nearest I have come to giving succour to poor cottagers was singing the part of the pageboy in the carol Good King Wenceslas aged 7/8.
Like the first cuckoo of Spring is this the first mention of Christmass (sic) 2011 on this blog. Do I get a mince pie or even a round Robin?
Re earlier jammy dodgey rumours- we are at cross purposes-you I think are discussing Trench 44 and Trench 45 of MPP's dig close to the Heel Stone (I do not really think it is 'close to the car park') and I am trying to flush out
stones from the Stonehenge car park that may or may not exist and may or may not be in Dr XXXX's possession.
Ms BETTY O'BESE
Sure to goodness, darlin' Ms O'Bese, your poetry is enough to beguile even the hardest heart, let alone a man who's made a career out of testing granite and the like. My advice is to go ahead and send him the poem! Hopefully he will fancy you too when you do eventually meet, but I'd suggest you shouldn't try anything too erratic, not on the first date.
A. DONIS
IVOR T
As regards the thieving of the W/SW segment,I take your point about the likely sequence involved.
After Stonehenge ceased to have a ritual function, or even a tourist attraction etc to the Romans, it was far from forgotten. The stones provided SHELTER for travellers and a convenient hard surface upon which to construct a roadway that, until the late 18th Century, went right through the enclosure. The fall of the Great Trilithon in 1797, for example, was attributed at the time to the long-term activities of gypsies who used to shelter beside it and light fires for warmth and cooking in pits they dug close to its base.
It gives me know pleasure to say, as a former emplyer of a Highways Authority, that constructing a road may have provided at least one reason why some of the stones no longer exist, since in some cases stones may have been an obstruction and therefore removed, or, in the case of the Slaughter Stone, half buried. Broken stones may have provided some sort of hard standing, as well as a ready source for local farmers to build their houses etc.
The thrust (if you'll pardon the expression) of my argument vis a vis Running Out of Stones Before the Job is Completed, is, in a nutshell:-
those Neolithic/ Bronze Age Good Ol' Boys needed a Leader, someone like I K Brunel of Great Western Railway & Box Tunnel fame, to supervise proceedings: in short, someone to provide the IKEA know-how. Otherwise, they WOULD run out of stones at an embarrassing moment, then to be laughed at mockingly by their more organised Avebury Neighbours up the road.
Sadly oh so sadly I have just celebrated my/our Ruby wedding anniversary (I must add not at all sad about the length of my/our marriage-best thing I ever did)so am unavailable -but the pension does sound inticing I have a little Ponzi scheme I am pushing so hurry-up cash in that pension, sell the hovel and whisk me off to the Grenadines/Larsens Camp.
I shall hum Roisin Dubh all the way there just to keep the bird theme going.
But hey guys this is not all about me (there is no I in ego!!!).... (more, more) but those brave determined ur-builders of that great mysterious computer in Wessex. Ah old forgotten dreams and thanks for ((all)) the poem. ((fish)).
Dr not-currently-on-the-market-but-Lord Baden-knows-best Ixer
Who was it who said that that those who dabble Stonehenge all end up going mad? Did he know something the rest of us don't know?
me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alongside my "like Miss Muir's little black dress everyone should have a Stonehenge paper".
Myris
Aah, but what a way to go!!Shine, on, shine on Stonehenge Moon, up in the sky, I've seen no Theories since January, February, June or July.............[but I still watch The One Show just in case]...
Mrs WHEELER
Brian,
1). I have a piece of paper to say I'm sane, but what worries me is it has a sell by date on the back.
2). Dear Doctor Ixer, take no notice of Ms betty O'Bese, I know the lady well and she is a flirt, a tart and no good. She should be sent to quarry the numulitic limestones of Egypt rather than spending her time wandering in the soft mists of the Welsh Marches looking for the parents of ancient ssts.
3). Everyone ---- My new theory:
If you look at the stone alignments of Carnac, Morbihan, Brittany on Google Earth, they have a great similarity to the punched-paper rolls that revolve and play tunes in a ?barrel organ. Also, Stonehenge has 56 Aubrey Holes which is the number of notes in 7octaves of music. Also, Seahenge had 55 wooden posts which is the same 7 octaves but without repeating the last note.
I claim that all these ancient monuments are early musical instruments and the Tibeten Horn was made to play "I'm Allright Yak"
accompanied by the Electric Light Orchestra featuring a solo on Fluorescent Tuba.
Who ever said Stonehenge affects people is nuts.
DODGY DAVE
How right you are! And I have a further Curious Coincidence to add, viz:-
Mortimer Wheeler, M P Pearson and T Darvill were /are all practitioners of the Fairly Ancient Art of Spontaneous Nose Flute Rhythm Playing, practised in the foothills of The Preseli Mountains at various times between 1935 and The Present. Need I say more? I rest my case.
Whispering (Quietly) Paul MacDowell
Come back Ms Muir, with your little black dress, all is most definitely forgiven, and you made some of the most Sensible Statements viv a vis the subject of New Age Archaeology ever/ recently submitted to the Powers That Be.
Twiggy
Ms BETTY O'BESE A.K.A. etc, etc.....
Are you by any chance distantly related at all, at all, to the O'BEISANCES ....of Con-e-mora??? Often present at archaeological conferences from here to Timbukto.
A FAIRWEATHER-FRIEND
Dear Anon, Anon & Anon, (Solicitors At Law),
1). Spontaneous Nose Flute Rhythm Playing, for all its artistic merit, was banned from the local British Legion Club after five members of the performing sextet caught a really heavy head-cold, a Committee member later said that the resulting behaviour shouldn't be swept under the carpet.
2). I am sad to say that I'm unfamiliar with Ms. Muir or her little black dress, but I would like to know more. However, Twiggy sang at the same British Legion Club, the Committee member complained that he couldn't see her behind the mic-stand.
3). I thought I would be safe from possible criticism by using a different name, but it seems that my secret is out. I admit that I am also Dodgy Dave and not even from Ireland, but I have got a scratched record of Mario Lanza singing Danny Boy, a colour photo of Lloyd George and a surgical truss that my Granny used to wear.
One tiny clue for A. Fairweather-Friend ------- Mr. Andy Fairweather-Low was born in the village where I do live now isn't it see.
P.S. If you include the inverted stump in the Seahenge total then that makes 56 as well.
Karamba! Now it all falls into plaice. I feel the scales [ of the plaice] falling from my eyes..........is this a vision I see before me? Oh, crikey, no. it's Terry "the ex-auctioneer" Wogan, lumbering towards me, with his Children In Need collecting bowl.
Seriously though, folks, please give generously to Children In Need.
Mrs Wheeler
Many's the time I've wandered home of a night, Wide-Eyed and Legless, like most true Welshmen, stoned out on my Brains, from Ystrad Mynach, accompanied by Tom Jones Woodward (on the little transistor) as we used to know him before he bought the Cuban heels........ by heck, this is bloody good, did Dylan Thomes leave anything in his last drunken stupor he regretted not finishing? I'm your man! Leave it with me.
Who are you if you are not Lobby Ludd? Are you Isaac Newton? Are you John Humphreys? Wasn't he from Cardiff? Did anything good ever come from Ystrad Mynach? However, it's near Caerphilly, and I have fond memories of a young lady from there who used to entice me in her yoga costume of an evening. But that's another tale....
BILL WYMAN'S RHYTHM KINGS
MYSTERY GUEST!
You're not on of these English second home-owners in Wales, are you? Are you rotund Russell Grant of Flavia flame/ fame?? If I am getting warm, you (and your house) most certainly will be! CROESO Y CYMRU, Boyo. [It's all said in jest, we need the money for our economy, ask Geoff & Brian]
Second-Row Forward
Some say the only good thing to come from Ystrad Mynach was the road leading out of it, others know better.
I can confirm that I am Welsh born and bred, but soon to emigrate to lands further north, close to the Ixer tribe of great antiquity.
I'm off to the local quarry now to shape some large stones, and I'm still worried about Seahenge.
NOTE TO DESPERATE DAN
Why are you still worried about Seahenge? Do you think it ought to have been left untampered with? Do tell.
Hello Tony,
I was just pondering on the possible significance of the number 56 in both Stonehenge and Seahenge. I was only jesting with the reference to musical scales. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Perhaps moving Seahenge to a safer location was for the best, it's fortunate that the sea isn't threatening the Salisbury Plain area ---- I wouldn't fancy shifting Silbury Hill with my little pick and shovel.
Additionally,(and being serious for a change), do you know whether the Salisbury Museum would have any colour photos, preferably close-ups, of the Altar Stone that I could purchase? They are required for a small project of mine. Alternatively, can you suggest any other possible sources, please?
I was going to post this request on Brian's latest tab but you beat me to it.
All the best.
Dan
Post a Comment