Enough of Waun Mawn for the moment. I picked up on a comment on one of the discussion threads which mentioned a piece of bluestone found in a posthole numbered WA 95. Apparently, it was found between two radiocarbon dated layers and was therefore shown to have been in position around 7,000 yrs BC -- which places it solidly back in the Mesolithic. In other words, it was in position at a time when the archaeologists insist that there were no bluestones present on Salisbury Plain........... very inconvenient.
I have tried to track down the evidence, and have found a Wessex Archaeology Report on Durrington and Larkhill, which places posthole WA 95 near the Larkhill Medical Centre, at grid ref 412600 144900. There is a reference to 1999 WA research, and in one of the frelevent reports Matt Leivers of Wessex Archaeology is mentioned.
See also:
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2016/11/understanding-of-stonehenge-transformed.html
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/durrington-bluestone-object-3457e4b573914410a63e05d0df7b1f30
This may or may not be the same bluestone pebble which I referred to in a past post:
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/search?q=+Bluestone+pebble+Durrington
In the descriptions, it is said to have come from the vicinity of two postholes -- but it is not recorded as having been actually embedded in either of those holes. It may of course have just turned up in the debris being thrown out of one of the pits. It's dated in the literature as either Neolithic or Romano-British, but I do not know whether that is simply "assumptive" dating -- based on the fallacious reasoning that the stone could not possibly have been in either of these pits earlier than "the arrival of the bluestones." In "Stonehenge for the Ancestors", Vol 1, p 177, there is a reference to a "discoidal tool of group C rhyolite from a Romano-British ditch". If that is the same pebble, it is a pretty strange way to describe it.......... There is a reference to a WA publication by Thompson and Powell in 2018.
I'd like to know more about this rather interesting pebble. Does anybody have more information from Wessex Archaeology, or elsewhere? Where is it now?
It's worth reminding ourselves that there are bluestone pebbles and fragments scattered all over the Stonehenge landscape. See this map, which has appeared in a number of publications:
There are lots of research projects needed on Salisbury Plain, and one of them is a systematic survey of the bluestone debris, with rigorous recording of field data and assumption-free interpretation. Until that work is complete, I think that when people say "There are no bluestones on Salisbury Plain, and therefore the glacial transport thesis is dead", I think I will reply "There are lots of bluestones on Salisbury Plain, and they look as if they might belong to a very old and degraded glacial deposit."
PS. More and more intriguing. There is a number on the base of the pebble, which looks like 74411 --5653 --36. Presumably the pebble is in the Wessex Archaeology collection.
This is the WA description:
The ‘bluestone’ object is a bifacial lithic with polishing and flaking. It was found in a possibly Romano-British feature, next to two Late Neolithic posthole alignments at MOD Durrington. It resembles objects made out of ‘bluestone’, the same as some of the Stonehenge stones. A number of ‘bluestone’ objects have been found across the Stonehenge Landscape, even though not local to the geology.It is unknown when the object was created, or how it came to be buried at Durrington. Its proximity to the Neolithic posthole alignments could suggest a similar prehistoric date. However, the association with the Romano-British feature could suggest a later curation of the artefact, taken as a memento or trophy.
A section was taken to identify the geology of the rock and shows its original midnight blue colour when it was freshly made. The exterior surface is the result of 4500 years of weathering and wear.
The presumption is that this is a man-made "object" -- and that seems to me to be a very strange characterisation, given its surface characteristics. Polishing and flaking? Artefact? A memento or trophy? Yet more interpretative inflation, based on the unsupportable assumption that the pebble could not have been here before the Neolithic. From a careful look at that nice 3D animation, this is a perfectly ordinary small glacial erratic.
-------------------
PS. Tim Daw has done a post on this pebble on his blog, and seems fairly certain this came from Durrington.. He has cited the following from WA:
"A discoidal 'bluestone' object with heavily ground and flattened edges was found in the tertiary fill of the northern terminal of Romano British ditch 6256 (slot 5145), 7 m from the intersection of the two Late Neolithic posthole alignments (at posthole 5047). The object, which has a rounded trapezoid shape, is 64 mm wide, 67 mm long and 18 mm thick. It is made from a slab of stone that has developed a light grey surface patina, although a fresh break in one corner suggests a poorly developed conchoidal fracture and is a dark grey colour when freshly worked.
Further, thin section petrography shows the artefact to be manufactured from rhyolite with a 'sub- jovian' texture, texturally one of the most extreme (and hence characteristic) of the Craig Rhosyfelin rhyolitic rocks. In hand specimen, this rock-type would be very distinctive.
Relict flake scars confirm that the blank was subjected to rudimentary bifacial flaking around the edges, although it is less certain by how much the sides of the object result from flaking or are products of natural fracture. The edges of the object are all heavily ground, with a distinct flattened facet around the circumference. This flattened facet is a sufficiently recurring feature of similar objects of the type to indicate that it was an original feature and not a subsequent alteration to the edge. Grinding also extended across both sides of the object by as much as 11 mm from the edges. The function of the object remains unknown.
"Elsewhere at Durrington in another Romao-British context there were found: "18 pottery disks clipped into roughly circular shapes. Suggestions for their use include spindlewhorl production, gaming counters or even ‘pessoi’ for cleaning after defecation."
That description is rather disappointing, with all those references to "an object" rather than a pebble, and an underpinning assumption that it is worked or fashioned either as a "pessoi" of for some other wholesome purpose. As I said above, I have seen thousands of similar pebbles close to glaciers, and I suppose I could have described them in a similar fashion if had been minded to. People seem unaware of how glaciers affect and "fashion" the stones that are transported and dumped by ice.........
20 comments:
Your Post mentions Matt Leivers. He is meant to be taking part in a Q & A latest news and research event Monday night, online, Wiltshire Museum. See my Facebook Post for Saturday. Suggest you watch/join, I may not
I'm interested as well in the "trimmed, circular mudstone disc" claimed to have been found at Waun Mawn. We have't seen any images of that -- but I think we'd better assume that it is simply another flattish pebble with a roughly circular shape and some breakage on the edges. If there is any evidence of human involvement in "shaping" it, let's see it............
From the MPP paper on Waun Mawn: "...........the disc is of a type found within Neolithic levels at the Carn Goedog megalith quarry, 5km to the east." Another of these throwaway statements which has no value. Neolithic levels? Megalith quarry? If there are similar "discs" at Carn Goedog, why haven't we seen them either? Too much telling, and too little showing.....
Do we know how many small bits of alleged bluestone were found by Julian Richards back in the '80's? He was doing it by fieldwalking large areas of the greater Stonehenge landscape. He has since expressed some regret for not leaving items in situ.
As Brian may have already found out, Matt Leivers is Senior Specialist Services Manager, Wessex Archaeology.
His email address is:-
m.leivers@wessexarch.co.I'm
Also look at:-
wessexarch.co.uk/people/Matt-drivers
The Wiltshire Museum talk is tonight and costs non - members £4-50#
So, just pop a hole, pretty much anywhere in the Stonehenge landscape and find a 'bluestone' embedded in that ancient flint mud and Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt?
You're not looking for bones, treasure, pits, just a bit of old stone washed up by ice, 12 thousand or half a million years ago.
Easier, still, it needed not be in the controlled areas. Someone's back garden, a farmer's field a mile or two away.
While others were looking for bones, treasure and pits, they found 'bluestones' shrugged and kept digging?
Nobody has solely, purposely gone looking for that one little, tiny bit of stone that would be the end of the fairy story?
We might ask David Jacques, the Mesolithic, Blick Mead archaeologist, to encourage folk to do what Steve Hooker is suggesting.
Mr Jacques seems to be treated as something of an "outsider" by the majority of those who have dug elsewhere in the Stonehenge greater landscape. Maybe he's not so averse to considering that glaciation might be the missing link.
>ask
Wouldn't there be hundreds of young guns, gagging for MPP's blood on their CVs, their names in journals for ever more?
>an "outsider" not so adverse to considering
Are we so crackpot?
In my guerilla mind, a few friends around one Sunday afternoon, in someone's garden, a hole and a couple of buckets of mud. Well documented, like they've been taught, photos, video and a posting on some Facebook groups, would blow the whole world up.
Well, in tonight's Wiltshire Museum talk, I put a question to Matt Leivers of Wessex Archaeology. Has his team found many bluestones? Answer, not very often. He did refer to a "sub
- circular " re - touched piece, maybe Romano - British"/ I had submitted my question in advance (only person who did out of 70 oarticipants) and was disappointed he wasn't clearer in his answer. He did say Julian Richards has found 20 -odd pieces in his Environmental fieldwalking survey. Pitts asked Matt if he's found any in his Stonehenge Tunnel work, he was vague. Pitts send there was a co veneration at the West end of The Greater Cursus (which is well known). Katie Whittaker (Saracens specialist) talked about small pieces and that she insisted they were "re - worked".
I was disappointed Brian did not join this Zoom talk, I'd given him the details and he's just done a Post referring to Matt Leivers, so a chance missed.
Too much going on this evening, Tony. Zoom discussions can go on for a very long time, and most of the contents can be on other topics of marginal interest -- have learned that from experience...... Anyway, glad you were able to tune in.......
I can always get a message to Matt by Email. Might also ask Austen about those post holes......
Steve --it;s very difficult to see any common sense in the records of bluestone bits and pieces in the Stonehenge landscape. they are always assumed to be late Neolithic or later, and if they don't seem to fit that dating assumption, they are explained away as being in secondary or tertiary deposits and so forth. It's difficult to see which descriptions are really the accurate and impartial ones.... chasing up the car park post holes info at the moment....... and that piece of rhyolite
But yes, any bits of bluestone that can be correctly assigned to a Palaeolithic or Mesolithic context would be rather interesting, and would completely upset the apple cart.
The 3 main speakers, plus Director Dawson, discussed the frequency of Mesolithic discoveries along the Salisbury Avon valley generally, as well as there being Blick Mead near Stonehenge. Apparently, there is a Mesolithic presence very close to Parker Pearson's so - called Bluestonehenge.Let's hope bits of Blue stone so turn up in secure pre - Neolithic contexts.
My impression of Matt Leivers is that maybe he hasn't been sucked into the Human Transport Hypothesis whirlpool and he therefore will be reasonably objective about the alternative. You will see he has more than one string to his now when it comes to his researches. Apparently he lives in Hampshire.
Actually, I'm pretty laid back about bluestone fragments being found in Mesolithic contexts. There weren't very many people around at the time, and they didn't do much digging. In the Neolithic people started to dig!! That means that if there were bluestones, pebbles of remnants of ancient glacial deposits around in the landscape, there is a chance that some of them would turn up in the spoil from whatever digging went on -- especially in ditches, embankments, causeways and stone holes. I have a major problem with the manner in which sediment layers with bluestone bits and pieces in them are dated by reference to the assumed date of bluestone "importation." That is a completely cockeyed way of looking at things........ you have to get your dating from other lines of evidence like pollen analysis, snails or radiocarbon dating, and if there are bluestone bits in an early Neolithic context, for example, then we have something interesting to go on.
(It is now September 17th the same year, 2021). I do wonder if former Time Team member, Dr Phil Harding, might get interested - if approached on the subject - in efforts to objectively look out for pieces of Pembrokeshire bluestone that may turn up in digs at early Neolithic or Mesolithic sites around and slightly beyond the Stonehenge World Heritage Site....
I make this comment on the same day Brian out a Post on about the Sidestone Press big opus magnum that he reminds us we may all read FOR FREE.
Brian, with respect to your previous comment, see page 230 paragraph 2 of MPP's 2012 Stonehenge: Exploring.....book. They found microlithic evidence for Mesolithic settlement in the sediment of that Avenue Henge......what a pity they probably ignored scrupulous checking for bluestones as well!
On p 229 MPP refers to finds of bluestone bits by Colin Richards at Coneybury henge, in fields north of the Cursus, and at North Kite -- and at the latter site bits of spotted dolerite are said to have been found on an old ground surface beneath a Beaker period embankment. MPP days: "Any fragments of bluestone found in this landscape are of great importance: since the bluestones came from Wales, and do not occur naturally on Salisbury Plain, such fragments indicate nearby prehistoric activity...." I don't know the details for North Kite, but that sounds like circular reasoning, with a cockeyed assumption that bluestones cannot possibly have been there before the "bluestone arrival date", and with the bluestones being used as a dating proxy for the age of the ground surface and the bank that lies on top of it. Very dodgy indeed........
Brian, North Kite Enclosure lies about 1 mile South of Stonehenge. It is a 3 - sided enclosure originally consisting of a bank with an external ditch enclosing a large area, but open on its southern side. Excavations include Julian Richards, sometime in the 1980s, finding 3 chips of spotted dolerite when he dug a ditch through its west bank. The English Heritage Stonehenge Guidebook revised 2017 says North Kite lies on private land and cannot be visited, but partially viewed from a nearby footpath.
Think it might be worthwhile to contact Colin Richards ( now academically based in Scotland) to get a copy of his plotting map of what MPP refers to as the distribution of bluestone "chippings" across the Stonehenge wider landscape. That is, if he's prepared to let me see it.....he ought to, for greater good of scientific research generally. No need to regard another approach to the possible MODE by which bluestones arrived in the wider landscape as adversarial. Both of the possible modes of transport have their advocates who are seekers after truth, a worthy objective.
We have seen maps of finds in various publications, but if there ia a "definitive map" with ALL bluestone "fragments", boullders and pebbles plotted on it, let's have it in the public domain.........
Post a Comment