tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post6991889441769728631..comments2024-03-28T22:13:17.139+00:00Comments on Stonehenge and the Ice Age: Ice in the Bristol Channel -- the latest modellingBRIAN JOHNhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-46225441815939477592018-01-04T19:14:31.642+00:002018-01-04T19:14:31.642+00:00Jon -- you mentioned tim's blog and the post c...Jon -- you mentioned tim's blog and the post claiming that the glacial transport theory is dead -- sadly based on a map of the wring glacial episode. I have twice sent comments in response to that post, but it appears that Tim is disinclined to be corrected. BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-76952240997868341952017-12-19T12:51:26.103+00:002017-12-19T12:51:26.103+00:00Abstract seems clear Myris "The Altar Stone a...Abstract seems clear Myris "The Altar Stone and a sandstone fragment (excavated at Stonehenge) are from two sources within the Palaeozoic of south-west Wales". But the full text of paper isn't something that's easily accessible so it's difficult for the lay reader to be sure that there's not an underlying assumptive error.<br /><br />Why Secondary Neolithic Heimat? Wouldn't that be primary?Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-78975595284803373612017-12-19T09:12:56.320+00:002017-12-19T09:12:56.320+00:00Oh course the blessed sisters, Brezh and Nesti co...Oh course the blessed sisters, Brezh and Nesti could be the patron saints of sacred wells or indeed of this blog.<br /> Oh well I may as well wish that all your wells remain filled and unpolluted. Have a drink, even a mug of dead dog.<br />MMyris of Alexandrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-37072786686402885592017-12-18T12:25:00.463+00:002017-12-18T12:25:00.463+00:00The altar stone is perhaps the most 'important...The altar stone is perhaps the most 'important'of the stones (my fav. is 32e of course)and may be a link to the Secondary Neolithic Heimat. <br /><br />Read the paper, as a mean 'umble plodder in the dinted steps of those heated sods I must defer to that paper.<br /><br />Suffice to say the provenance of the bluestones, all of them, have exercised geologists for 140 years and this has included some of the finest geological minds. All simple sources have been explored-<br />The pet rock boys did something very grand -they started from scratch, believed no-one, went to the original material and acted like Victorian Divines and were incredibly lucky.<br />(As I used to tell my students "In Victorian days most geologists were divines, but where can you find a divine geologist these days".) <br /><br />Cryf is a once in a lifetime find.<br /><br />For the Altar stone you can read Ixer and Turner 2008? Ixer et al 2017 (On academia edu)but must also await the forthcoming Pet Roc Boys Antiquity paper. Thomas was not a divine but a professional.<br /><br />All this talk of divines and altar is so very Adventual must go and decorate the tree for Rosie and wrap her presents.<br /><br />Tomorrow is the Feast day of the Blessed Brez Nesti. (Patron saints of thirsty travellers), they gave the Holy Family a drink at a well. (This came to me in a dream/vision years ago)and we celebrate the day with cards and drinks). <br /><br />MMyris of Alexandrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-87936918434037249522017-12-18T09:12:56.272+00:002017-12-18T09:12:56.272+00:00Out of interest, Tim Daw's posted up some comm...Out of interest, Tim Daw's posted up some comment on the research here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sarsen.org/2017/11/stonehenge-glacial-transport-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sarsen.org/2017/11/stonehenge-glacial-transport-of.html</a><br /><br />I can't comment on Tim's site (been like that for a year or two.. probably something to do with the site settings), so wondered what the team's thoughts were on a partial transport hypothesis (by glacier to, for example, the Borders area): The quarry hypothesis appears to be weak given what's been published to date, so it seems to me that without positive confirmation of some sort of "proto-Stonehenge", the obituary may be somewhat premature (but I'm not a geological expert so find it difficult to be certain).Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-52259483506177497072017-12-17T18:40:05.201+00:002017-12-17T18:40:05.201+00:00I would have thought from the evidence at Avebury ...I would have thought from the evidence at Avebury that we should accept that the people of that time were able to move and organise much heavier stones than those from Preseli. <br />Many would readily accept that the motive for choosing materials at Stonehenge is not "architectural". The decision to use different materials is deliberate surely, the big sarsens in the outer ring, the spotted dolorites on the inner bluestone ring and the other bluestones on the outer. Then the Altar Stone mystery: a fourth material, not local, alone. Had the motive been "architectural" then they would have likely built in wood.chris johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16210890033354730381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-25253339202120202162017-12-17T14:47:22.787+00:002017-12-17T14:47:22.787+00:00Thanks to Myris and his mention of the Wrekin i no...Thanks to Myris and his mention of the Wrekin i now know of Uriconio.This is i believe another link to the Auroch (Uri,Ure,Uru) and its connection to ancient enclosures and stone circles.I am now aware of Urswick in the South lakes,Inverurie,Urchfont and the river Ure.Does anyone know of other places?I have also just read for the first time "Uriconium an ode"by Wilfred Owen.Cheers M. Gordonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-47661032866463725192017-12-17T09:21:05.800+00:002017-12-17T09:21:05.800+00:00I don't think I've read the Thorpe paper M...I don't think I've read the Thorpe paper Myris<br /><br />In general Stonehenge is symmetrical about the North East axis. The symmetrically arranged stones would, from an architectural point of view, ideally have been sourced from the same material. The larger sarsens, sourced probably from the same location, have two symmetrical structures. The bluestones also have two symmetrical structural arrangements.<br /><br />The source of these two material sets would appear to have been located in Marlborough and Preseli. The oddity is the Altar Stone, which does not need to form part of either of the two sets of two symmetrical structures: This one stone appears to be have a source that is neither Preseli nor Marlborough.<br /><br />Of the two sets of arrangements, the sarsens would take as much or more effort to transport than the bluestones; even accounting for the greater distance of transport (and regardless of whether or not the glacial transport hypothesis is true). In particular, the effort needed to transport the larger sarsens far exceeds the effort needed to transport the Altar Stone.<br /><br />At about six tons, the effort needed to transport the Altar Stone from Wales could easily be dwarfed by the effort required to transport one of the larger the larger sarsens from Marlborough. However, the Altar Stone is given a prime location of its own, which indicates that it was probably more important than, or equally important to, any other individual stone. <br /><br />If one completely rejects the glacial transport hypothesis, then this stone could have been sourced from anywhere at all: Any additional effort required to transport that particular stone is already evident from the location in which it is set.<br /><br />Did the Thorpe paper cover the “anywhere at all” scenario Myris?Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-68352494461158866152017-12-16T08:47:38.880+00:002017-12-16T08:47:38.880+00:00Petrographical, geochemical and age differences ar...Petrographical, geochemical and age differences are enormous.<br /><br />It is worth reading the 1991 Thorpe et al paper they looked at all possible contenders.<br /><br />When the pet rocks boys first started (as flaxen- haired, ripped godlins) they flirted with the Wrekin with visions of orthostats floating g down the Severn.<br />Alas not to be.Craig Rhosyfelin came along.<br />Trust us, we are doctors, any rock you can think of anywhere has been tested.<br /><br />M<br />Myris of Alexandrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-1248212446055569142017-12-16T08:38:20.558+00:002017-12-16T08:38:20.558+00:00Yes
MYes<br />MMyris of Alexandrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-48959144643894322772017-12-15T14:36:40.412+00:002017-12-15T14:36:40.412+00:00I believe they are very different, Gordon. Myris ...I believe they are very different, Gordon. Myris will have chapter and verse on all of that, and maybe he will enlighten us.......BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-17800335037191922482017-12-15T12:03:29.592+00:002017-12-15T12:03:29.592+00:00The Malvern Hills contain Dolerite intrusions,Rhyo...The Malvern Hills contain Dolerite intrusions,Rhyolite,Tuffs,Diorite and Old Red Sandstone.They are approximately 70 miles as the crow flies from Stonehenge.Are these stones so well known to be different from the stones at Stonehenge that they are not worth considering? Gordonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-35777888619416324332017-12-15T09:44:39.791+00:002017-12-15T09:44:39.791+00:00Far too simplistic, I'm afraid. For a start, ...Far too simplistic, I'm afraid. For a start, the obsession with spotted dolerite needs to be dumped -- there are many other rock types involved in this debate, including rhyolites, ashes and sandstones. It's true that no big "bluestone" erratics -- big enough to be called boulders or slabs or pillars -- have been found lying around on Salisbury Plain. The only ones we know about are at Stonehenge -- and the only other one is the one taken from Boles Barrow. Olwen Williams-Thorpe suggests that there may have been other ones too, but that they have been smashed up and or removed and buried during field clearance operations. That's not a substitute for hard evidence, of course! My own thesis is that when Stonehenge was being built the builders made a systematic search for stones of all types -- sarsens and bluestones -- over a wider and wider area until they could find no more that were of any use-- at which point they abandoned the project in an incomplete state. I haven't ever been given any convincing evidence that Stonehenge was completed.....<br /><br />The new modelling work is rather convincing, suggesting that from a glaciological point of view the ice might well have reached Salisbury Plain on at least one occasion. The ground truthing problem is a big one. There is good evidence of ice reaching the Bristol and Bath area and extending well into Somerset -- but we need some bright young research students to do a systematic study of the sediments on and around the edges of Salisbury Plain.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-31557404962293057992017-12-14T17:58:41.885+00:002017-12-14T17:58:41.885+00:00Brian,
As far as i understand it the two major ar...Brian,<br /><br />As far as i understand it the two major arguments against the theory that rocks were entrained within ice and at some point desposited across the Bristol channel and into south west England is that<br /><br />a. the ice sheet didnt get that far and<br />b. there are no other west wales erratics found in the vicinity other than those at stonehenge and possibly the Boles Barrow stone <br /><br />So if the previous accepted geographic extent of the ice sheets is now in serious doubt following this new research, is it just the case that we await the discovery of spotted dolerite between Pembrokeshire and Wiltshire to blow the human transportation argument out of the water? Or is this too simplistic? CysgodyCastellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620207303913151566noreply@blogger.com