tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post6528277791757539474..comments2024-03-28T22:13:17.139+00:00Comments on Stonehenge and the Ice Age: A prophecy fulfilledBRIAN JOHNhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-7136233456545149502011-09-22T08:33:17.748+01:002011-09-22T08:33:17.748+01:00Calling this one to an end, folks. Interesting as...Calling this one to an end, folks. Interesting as the discussion has been. it has gone way off topic......BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-4498731096038878882011-09-22T02:46:52.292+01:002011-09-22T02:46:52.292+01:00Geo Cur,
I wrote my comment to you right after I ...Geo Cur,<br /><br />I wrote my comment to you right after I wrote my comment to Robert! The 'attitude' inadvertently carried over! I apologize …<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-6596234395343479272011-09-21T21:08:59.040+01:002011-09-21T21:08:59.040+01:00Tony , a wee bit more "GT" in a recent r...Tony , a wee bit more "GT" in a recent repy to RJL .<br />I'm a musician /music teacher ,archaeologically ,I discover/record rock art .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-49124849628316878712011-09-21T21:03:41.651+01:002011-09-21T21:03:41.651+01:00RJL , I wonder if you have read the books or just...RJL , I wonder if you have read the books or just skimmed the reviews . I imagine the latter . If you had read them you would have across a discussion on the old chestnut of these and other similar monuments being Kraals , needless to say it was ,as had been argued about that point many years ago , lacking in evidence , not that that would matter to you , but more importantly only two Causewayed enclosures had sufficient evidence , Etton and Northborough had beetle and phosphate analysis to suggest the presence of cattle but hill top locations are not good for keeping cattle for any length of time nor is concentration of vulnerable herds , and dispersal is a better tactic . You will have noticed that I described the books as being about the shift from east to west in Southern Britain ,Scotland and northern England do get mentioned does get mentioned but it is cursory and that is because ,the subject of the book causewayed enclosures are essentially an southern English monument , once again if you had read the books you would have noticed this and also that the dating of ground axes was more complex than your one example . It wasn’t just ground axes it was various types and source of ground axes and how they related to various types of early Neolithic monument ,if the view is stone a stick then it will not be of interest . The earliest enclosure in Cornwall were built about a century after the start of Neolithic activity i.e. use of cereal this date c 3700 BC whereas Neolithic activity began much earlier in the Greater Thames estuary i.e. the longhouse at White Horse Stone was built 4065 -3940 BC and Coldrum 3985 -3855 BC but the first enclosure was not built until 3665 -3565 BC .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-1404194956907043262011-09-21T19:57:58.148+01:002011-09-21T19:57:58.148+01:00Kostas I don’t need any help from you or have any...Kostas I don’t need any help from you or have any misunderstanding regarding solstices . I think it’s you who needs the help , a solstice is an astronomical event and solar radiation has little do with the definition , this is apparent when you consider that half of these annual events occur in midwinter which in this hemisphere means that the solar radiation is limited . The Stonehenge Avenue is oriented (approx 50 degrees )on the rising sun at the Solstice , by mid day when the sun is overhead and at 180 degrees that is when the greatest amount of solar radiation will experienced over the whole area and not just the Avenue .The "trajectory" of the sun , usually known as the ecliptic , if “projected on to the ground “ would not look anything like the short straight section of the Avenue ,it would be a curved line extending from north east to the north west . There are other Avenues associated with British monuments but they are not despite what you say , aligned on the solstices . <br /> Hope this helps you .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-82483990346422784062011-09-21T17:39:57.009+01:002011-09-21T17:39:57.009+01:00Geo Cur - thanks for your extra info on "gath...Geo Cur - thanks for your extra info on "gathering time" posted by you at 00.08 on 21 Sept.<br /><br />Could I ask what your specialism is?TONY Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-11324355047854305172011-09-21T16:53:22.694+01:002011-09-21T16:53:22.694+01:00Geo Cur,
Thank you for the opportunity to clear a...Geo Cur,<br /><br />Thank you for the opportunity to clear a clear misunderstanding you have on this.<br /><br />The 'time of day' (morning-noon-evening) is not relevant here! It's the 'time of year' that is important. <br /><br />The summer solstice is the time of the year of greatest solar radiation on the earth. It is when the sun's orbit through the sky reaches its maximum. It's this trajectory projected onto the ground that determines the orientation of the Avenue; as well as the orientation of all other 'avenues' elsewhere. <br /><br />Ice being most sensitive and responsive to solar heat, this orientation will be 'etched' on the surface of an ice sheet. Over time, this develops into a meltwater channel on the surface of the ice. And much later, as the ice channel further melts, this becomes a meltwater stream with the soil exposed.<br /><br />My working hypothesis – that at the time when these land features were formed the land was covered by ice – perfectly explains all the details of the 'facts on the ground' we observe of the Avenue.<br /><br />It explains the summer solstice orientation of the Avenue; it explains the parallel ditches on each side of the Avenue; it explains why the Avenue is straight for a long stretch before it abruptly veers off at 'the elbow'; and it explains why there are periglacial striation at the Avenue but no where else. And it does so without needing to invent lost civilizations and quirky intentions of advanced primitives.<br /> <br />Hope this helps you …<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttp://knol.google.com/k/constantinos-ragazas/the-un-henging-of-stonehenge/ql47o1qdr604/16#noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-46956130621855201332011-09-21T10:50:15.323+01:002011-09-21T10:50:15.323+01:00Geo Cur
'Gathering time' is a severely fl...Geo Cur<br /><br />'Gathering time' is a severely flawed work.<br /><br />The construction of causeway enclosures is bordering on fascicle - why would you spend years cutting ditches and then erecting fences around them for livestock.<br /><br />When was the last time you saw a farmer with a spade in his hand digging trenches to keep his cattle in a field and then putting fences up to stop them falling in the ditch?<br /><br />Then their conclusions on artefacts - Ground axes used from 4250BC until and ended 3250BC - what rubbish!- its a stone on a stick for goodness sake.<br /><br />Mitigation from Europe started in Kent at 4050BC and finally walked to Northern Scotland and Wales by 3700BC - <br />according to their map it took 100 years to get to Birmingham but only another 100 years to get to Glasgow - 5 times greater distance - must have discovered walking fast in 3900BC?<br /><br />But on a second map shows enclosures all started at the 3710BC in Kent and 3705BC in Cornwall - did everyone suddenly get the same idea or a really fast runner was employed to go around britain in 5 years and say - lets build big ditches and surround them with fences, its the new trend?<br /><br />Seminal, more like dribble.<br /><br />RJLBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16886732338349957214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-20325130765236808602011-09-21T04:09:53.187+01:002011-09-21T04:09:53.187+01:00Geo Cur,
All my assumptions aim only to clearly e...Geo Cur,<br /><br />All my assumptions aim only to clearly establish my logical thinking. Hope you take none personal, as none is personal.<br /> <br />I feel perfectly comfortable with the idea <i>“...of the Neolithic package and possibly much more moved from east to west in Southern Britain in the early 4th Millenium “.</i> All this fits my theory fine.<br /><br />You write,<br /><i><br />“Considering that the Ice had retreated from some of these areas 6,000 years earlier the two [ice and earthworks] are clearly unconnected .”</i><br /><br />Well, that's where we disagree. I rather keep an open mind on all of that chronology and question the theories that have lead to such conclusions. <br /><br />If you believe that prehistoric men built these land features, you'll look at the data differently than if you believe that Nature created the conditions that prehistoric men exploited, commensurate with their abilities.<br /> <br />But there is another issue in all this for me. I believe the dates you give about the 'ice retreat' only account for glacier ice. Local ice (like frozen waterways) may still have existed in many of these areas. I am not saying that it did. I am just leaving that possibility open. <br /><br />Such a working hypothesis enables us to explain many minute details of the 'facts on the ground' in a simple, sensible and consistent way. This convinces me this possibility is a very real possibility!<br /><br />I have many issues with the chronology given to various stages for Stonehenge, et al. I hope Brian puts up a post on that topic soon. <br /><br />My sense is that all the chronology given is driven by 'experts' seeking to fit the data into their 'Man-made Theory'. And it just does not fit without extreme convoluted logic, arranging and rearranging the 'facts on the ground' to different periods.<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttp://knol.google.com/k/constantinos-ragazas/the-un-henging-of-stonehenge/ql47o1qdr604/16#noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-50319424845756780492011-09-21T00:21:21.603+01:002011-09-21T00:21:21.603+01:00Kostas , the striations and the Avenue are aligned...Kostas , the striations and the Avenue are aligned on the rising of the Solstice sun , hardly the warmest time of day . By noon , the warmest point , the sun will have travelled 130 degrees away from that orientation .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-87499605581062271892011-09-21T00:08:10.305+01:002011-09-21T00:08:10.305+01:00Tony , “ Gathering Time “ is two tomes of nearly...Tony , “ Gathering Time “ is two tomes of nearly a thousand pages and I believe will be looked back upon as seminal , a huge step forward . We are now able to think in terms of generations not centuries . The same team had revolutionised the way we saw the treatment of deposition in Long Barrows showing that they were not , in the cases they examined , monuments that were returned to over centuries with the curated bones of the “ancestors “ but in commission for much shorter periods than was previously believed , in some case two generations before being sealed , and the deposits were not curated but the recently dead i.e. the mothers and fathers of the builders or at least members belonging to the same generation . With further advances in DNA extraction the familial aspects will become clearer too .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-33671223702983370242011-09-20T23:31:01.846+01:002011-09-20T23:31:01.846+01:00Don't think I have blocked anything recently, ...Don't think I have blocked anything recently, Kostas -- there are so many messages coming in that I might inadvertently have missed something -- in which case, apologies...BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-77853337786924696692011-09-20T23:08:46.458+01:002011-09-20T23:08:46.458+01:00A new book, by Alistair Whittle and others, gives...A new book, by Alistair Whittle and others, gives the new chronology for the causewayed enclosures. It was the subject of a recent "British Archaeology" article. There is also a Post on the blogsite:-<br /><br />http://armchairprehistory.com<br /><br />The Post is "Gathering time: bringing pre-history to Neolithic archaeologyTony Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-10370022480719205552011-09-20T22:54:55.356+01:002011-09-20T22:54:55.356+01:00Geo Cur at 17.29 on 19th September:-
I agree with...Geo Cur at 17.29 on 19th September:-<br /><br />I agree with the clear chronology for Causewayed Enclosures you recount. What is interesting is that these dates only came out (to the public at least) recently in 2011. MPP's version of Life in Neolithic Britain (October 2009) seems to have been superseded. Which makes one wonder; who gives the more accurate story: Mike Parker Pearson or Max Bygraves?Tony Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-276776330152814062011-09-20T22:23:56.138+01:002011-09-20T22:23:56.138+01:00“Assuming this is true “
The model based on 2350 R...“Assuming this is true “<br />The model based on 2350 RC measurements combined with Bayesian chronological modelling is the most sophisticated approach to archaeological chronologies yet . <br />“ Coincidence ?” <br /> incredibly unlikely , it shows how one aspect of the Neolithic package and possibly much more moved from east to west in Southern Britain in the early 4th Millenium .<br />Considering that the Ice had retreated from some of these areas 6,000 years earlier the two are clearly unconnected .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-18047436164315424232011-09-20T20:33:58.077+01:002011-09-20T20:33:58.077+01:00Brian,
If you block a comment, post that the comm...Brian,<br /><br />If you block a comment, post that the comment was blocked! As you have done in the past but not do now! <br /><br />Otherwise you create the skewed impression that there was no follow-up comment or the other person is just being ignored! <br /><br />Not fair!<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttp://knol.google.com/k/constantinos-ragazas/the-un-henging-of-stonehenge/ql47o1qdr604/16#noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-87838842341953148432011-09-20T17:49:05.184+01:002011-09-20T17:49:05.184+01:00Brian
These are two 'established sources'...Brian<br /><br />These are two 'established sources' which shows 'British temperature changes' - but at different times!!<br /><br />Dansguaard et al 1969 and Schonwiese 1995 - shows a temperature chart with 'Holocene climate maximum' 'Roman maximum' 'Medieval maximum' and MINI ICE AGE 500 years ago were written records endorse the chart - but there are previous one's prior to the written record of similar depth of cold drop - so I would guess a similar result?<br /><br />The Greenland Gisp2 Ice Core Data which I could have used was from the 'journal of quaternary science reviews 19- 213-226.<br /><br />This shows the same but the 'mini ice age' at 2700BC to 2500BC.<br /><br />So I believe the Periglacial Striations appeared either 2700BC to 2500BC or 3700BC to 3500BC depending on what Geologist you believe!!<br /><br />BUT as it seems that no Geologist has a theory or is brave enough to guess why these lines are only on the avenue - I take it the cart wheels are just a feasible?<br /><br />RJLBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16886732338349957214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-3682950522354322172011-09-20T15:48:51.370+01:002011-09-20T15:48:51.370+01:00Robert,
I especially liked your account with your...Robert,<br /><br />I especially liked your account with your chance meeting with MPP at Bluestonehenge! In a nutshell it captures the 'avoidance of evidence' if the evidence contradicts established ideas. It's more than just an intellectual exercise! It is a physical reaction, no less so than the “fight or flight” instinct. Obviously, in the case of your MPP encounter, “flight” took over.<br /><br />But picking up on you comment to me about the Avenue, you write<br /><br /><i>“The ditch/moat on the N/W side is deeper than the ditch/moat on the S/E if it was due to water flow it would be the other way around, as their is a natural slop at that point from NE to SE.”</i><br /><br />Two points to make on that here:<br /><br />1)The meltwater stream over the ice cover I am hypothesizing would be coming mainly from the N/W direction. The same as the direction of the glacier advance/retreat Brian has argued. You would expect the volume of water fall flow to be strongest in that direction and lesser further down in the direction of S/E. So my theory is again consistent with the 'facts on the ground'.<br /><br />2)The “natural slop” of the land has absolutely no relevance here, since we are hypothesizing an ice sheet cover. The surface of a frozen lake (for example) is perfectly flat; whereas the lake bottom can be very uneven and sharply sloped.<br /><br />You further write,<br /><i><br />“The avenue ends abruptly, if it was natural it would end gradually.”</i><br /><br />I assume you are talking about the straight stretch of the Avenue for some 500 meters before it abruptly veers off in the direction of River Avon. But I have already explained why that happens. <br /><br />The straight stretch of 500 meters first started as a meltwater channel on the surface of the ice sheet; starting at a retaining cylindrical ice basin at Stonehenge. The direction of the greatest solar radiation (which happens around summer solstice) determined the direction of this meltwater channel. At some point, this water channel would seek and find its way to the nearest river flow to drain. That's what accounts for the abrupt veering off towards the River Avon.<br /><br />As for <i>“ The Periglacial Striations within the avenue”,</i> these also have a simple explanation in accordance with my hypothesis. <br /><br />As the meltwater channel on the surface of the ice sheet got deeper, it eventually exposed the underlying soil. Thus the alluvial characteristics of the Avenue. As at this point it was a small stream. And of course, even with the normal periglacial conditions in the area and seasonal freezing during the winters (no need for a mini ice age!), this exposed soil will develop <i>“ The Periglacial Striations within the avenue”.</i><br /><br />This also explains why no such striations can be found elsewhere, since the rest of the landscape was still covered by ice and so protected.<br /><br />You asked! I answered!<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttp://knol.google.com/k/constantinos-ragazas/the-un-henging-of-stonehenge/ql47o1qdr604/16#noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-26379301558375137272011-09-20T14:18:43.348+01:002011-09-20T14:18:43.348+01:00“Assuming this is true “
The model ,based on 2350 ...“Assuming this is true “<br />The model ,based on 2350 RC measurements combined with Bayesian chronological modelling is the most sophisticated approach to archaeological chronologies yet . <br />“ Coincidence ?” <br /> incredibly unlikely , it shows how one aspect of the Neolithic package and possibly much more moved from east to west in Southern Britain in the early 4th Millenium .<br />Considering that the Ice had retreated from some of these areas 6,000 years earlier the two are clearly unconnected .Geo Curhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616965043116389325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-38138730008389034302011-09-20T11:53:50.337+01:002011-09-20T11:53:50.337+01:00An archaeologist simply needs to look at the Briti...An archaeologist simply needs to look at the British climate record for the UK and the French climate record for France! By now, with thousands of radiocarbon and other dates and accumulated stratigraphic studies too, we have a pretty good idea of what the main climatic phases were during the Holocene. Just read a good text book!BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-21003880839174416682011-09-20T11:32:38.327+01:002011-09-20T11:32:38.327+01:00You have to remember that the oscillations picked ...You have to remember that the oscillations picked up in the polar regions, in ice cores etc, do not necessarilt translate into dramatic climate changes in the mid-latitudes -- a bit cooler, or a bit more rain maybe, but definitely no great freeze. Check the BRITISH climate change records (there are plenty of them) if you want to know what happened here.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-60342965257239209172011-09-20T11:18:18.289+01:002011-09-20T11:18:18.289+01:00Brian
No sorry it was Dansguaard et al 1969 and S...Brian<br /><br />No sorry it was Dansguaard et al 1969 and Schonwiese 1995.<br /><br />So many sources with such inconsistent data - what is an archaeologist to do?<br /><br />RJLBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16886732338349957214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-17218040950004357802011-09-20T11:05:53.338+01:002011-09-20T11:05:53.338+01:00Brian
Greenland Gisp2 Ice Core Data - is this dat...Brian<br /><br />Greenland Gisp2 Ice Core Data - is this data in dispute?<br /><br />I took it for granted as they only appeared in the Avenue and no where else in Stonehenge Bottom, that water flooding followed by freezing could caused them - So a mini-ice age seemed the most likely cause?<br /><br />It can't be the last ice age as its far too isolated? BUT i'm no geologist so I hope i'm wrong!!<br /><br /><br />RJLBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16886732338349957214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-4128915150408955342011-09-20T10:33:44.465+01:002011-09-20T10:33:44.465+01:00Nobody, as far as I am aware, has ever talked abou...Nobody, as far as I am aware, has ever talked about a mini Ice Age around 3600 BC. You must have imagined it. regarding those "periglacial ruts" or grooves, I have written about these before -- but I have never seen them so I'm not going to seek to pass judgment.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-25152091728154075042011-09-20T10:23:00.138+01:002011-09-20T10:23:00.138+01:00Brian
Just repeating data from you Geologists - d...Brian<br /><br />Just repeating data from you Geologists - doesn't affect my hypothesis - if the the 'cold snap' is inaccurate this is a good place to correct it.<br /><br />I would love to have the Periglacial Striations to be cart wheel tracks as in Malta - just imagine drop off by boat at the end of the Avenue and taken my ox cart to the monument down the first man made road - unfortunately, I again rely on the expertise of the Geologists who said they are natural - shame!<br /><br />Mind you if they think the ditches are natural...you do wonder about their assessment. <br /><br />What's your expert option Brian? natural or can I have my cart tracks for the next book?<br /><br />RJLBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16886732338349957214noreply@blogger.com