tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post5833256855192012422..comments2024-03-28T22:13:17.139+00:00Comments on Stonehenge and the Ice Age: Bronze Age use of mauls and hammerstonesBRIAN JOHNhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-49649695988679685832012-05-15T18:52:54.336+01:002012-05-15T18:52:54.336+01:00Colin -- you say: "On close reading of the ...Colin -- you say: "On close reading of the article, there is no evidence for thinking there was "wild wood" either, and I would have thought that any pollen evidence to the contrary would be inconclusive, given it could have been blown in from trees that are adjacent to the Plain."<br /><br />How do you mean "there is no evidence" ?!!! People trot out that phrase with gay abandon, in the full knowledge that there is indeed good evidence -- it's just that they wish it wasn't there. <br /><br />The palynologists and other biologists who have studied soil horizons and other sediments on Salisbury Plain are not idiots. Instead of just quoting from the chapter, please chase up some of the references cited at the end of it -- THAT is where the evidence lies.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-48115122599183068572012-05-15T14:49:59.630+01:002012-05-15T14:49:59.630+01:00Colin,
thanks for the birthday theory.
My impress...Colin,<br />thanks for the birthday theory.<br /><br />My impression is that the provenancing work done by Rob Ixer and others is more akin to fingerprinting.chris johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16210890033354730381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-41938187979961450862012-05-15T12:55:42.744+01:002012-05-15T12:55:42.744+01:00Phil Dumbo reporting two errors in his previous po...Phil Dumbo reporting two errors in his previous post; it should have read - Vin Davis and Mark Edmonds.<br />My apologies to Vin and Mark.<br /><br />Phil M.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-14562297214355147422012-05-15T12:52:57.156+01:002012-05-15T12:52:57.156+01:00I doubt that the chalk upland we call Salisbury Pl...I doubt that the chalk upland we call Salisbury Plain was ever densely forested. The chalk must be highly porous - going by the fact there is virtually no surface run off - with dry valleys instead - at least from the centre- and there would surely have been more regeneration in the 20th century, given that vast areas are off-limits to anyone but the military (with little evidence that tanks etc are driven indiscriminately).<br /><br />The geology has not changed appreciably since the last Ice Age. It is still elevated chalk with very sharp drainage. Even if it once had thin dotted trees, like parkland, it would be difficult to maintain a fertile topsoil - there would have been little accumulation of leaf litter especially as alkaline soil counters acidity that tends to preserve leaf mould. I know from having gardened on chalk that top dressings of peat etc can disappear so fast that within a year or two you'd hardly know you had put down 4 of 5 bags.<br /><br />For neolithic man, the chalk uplands had their pros and cons as a place to settle and grow crops in terms of security from neighbouring folk and wild animals, water supply, soil fertility, access to flints, trade routes etc etc The pros must presumably have outweighed the cons, making the chalk upland the preferred habitat, judging by the abundance of settlement suggested by barrows etc.<br /><br />Having chosen to be upland rather than forest dwellers, that would have imposed constraints on life style. Given that Salisbury Plain is not just chalk, but ecologically unusual (described as one of Europe's largest areas of chalk grassland) I suspect that it hold the key to the uniqueness of Stonehenge as a place to which the dead were consigned. However, I suspect the answer may not be music to some people's ears. Don't press me to elaborate - at least not yet ;-)sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-61017844279174151722012-05-15T10:33:55.237+01:002012-05-15T10:33:55.237+01:00Hello Colin,
In a recent post you said -
"Th...Hello Colin,<br />In a recent post you said - <br />"The reason for citing this passage is that it gelled with my own gut feeling that Salisbury Plain with its lean soil and porous chalk had never been densely wooded following the last Ice Age, which was in fact its chief attraction to folk who had only stone implements - unable to do serious forest clearance."<br /><br />I've been looking at recent international studies relating to stone axes, and in the excellent book 'Stone Axe Studies III, Vin Davies & Mark Edmunds Eds, Oxbow Books, Oxford, 2011. In a section by Pierre & Anne-Marie Petrequin, page 336, the caption to a photograph of two fellas hacking at a substantial tree with stone axes states -<br /><br />'Felling of a tree 55cm in diameter, by four men working in relay over around 90 minutes. Langda (West Papua, Indonesia), Una group, 1993.<br /><br />I would think that the rate of felling quoted would produce some serious forest clearance which could have been matched by our ancestors.<br /><br />I would have sent the photo to Brian but all my computer stuff is packed away prior to moving home, leaving only a laptop to keep in touch.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Phil.Phil Morgannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-64709998675660446202012-05-14T18:23:43.416+01:002012-05-14T18:23:43.416+01:00PS: In a class of 23 people, there is said to be a...PS: In a class of 23 people, there is said to be a 50% chance that two people share the same birthday - which might seem countyer-intuitive given there are 365 possible birthdays (you can google "The Birthday Problem).<br /><br />Applying that principle, then it is hardly surprising that one can find at least one close match between the petrology of one or other Stonehenge bluestone specimen and that of Preseli, given there is a high degree of heterogeneity of rock types in both locations...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-50028011700792556242012-05-14T18:16:59.618+01:002012-05-14T18:16:59.618+01:00Hello Chris
You seem to be attributing to me the ...Hello Chris<br /><br />You seem to be attributing to me the various points under "Before Stonehenge", in some cases on matters of detail that appeared willy nilly in the chosen passage (taken from page 31 of the Stonehenge visitor guide) simply to avoid having to make editing decisions. On several of the points you raise (totem pole, farming practice etc) I have no views one way or the other. The reason for citing this passage is that it gelled with my own gut feeling that Salisbury Plain with its lean soil and porous chalk had never been densely wooded following the last Ice Age, which was in fact its chief attraction to folk who had only stone implements - unable to do serious forest clearance. On close reading of the article, there is no evidence for thinking there was "wild wood" either, and I would have thought that any pollen evidence to the contrary would be inconclusive, given it could have been blown in from trees that are adjacent to the Plain.<br /><br />As for why I think the special character of Salisbury Plain is important in deciding why Stonehenge is where it is, my ideas are evolving by the minute (some might say devolving in the light of those plutons and batholiths, but there you go).<br /><br />Something tells me that Silbury Hill may have a role to play in all of this (especially as it has been shown to have hundreds of bluestone fragments). Could quarrying to get out indigenous intrusive rock pillars like molars by their 'roots', so to speak, coupled with systematic spoil heap construction (Silbury Hill) could provide at least some of the answers to the chief conundrum re the bluestones? <br /><br />Sorry if you think I'm "quick off the mark". Time waits for no man...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-47288127900423285882012-05-14T16:13:28.631+01:002012-05-14T16:13:28.631+01:00Colin, I don't follow your point on the birthd...Colin, I don't follow your point on the birthday theory. You seem to want to crack this quickly but it is more complicated than Preseli and Stonehenge. We know of other megalithic cultures in e.g. Brittany, Orkney, Aberdeenshire, Yorkshire, the Boyne, etc, etc. Who influenced who? And how? And why is Stonehenge different to everything else?<br /><br />The writer you quote is citing an orthodox view. Still, we don't know if the Mesolithic posts were totem poles or not. When we like to be scientific we should be careful to separate fact (there are post holes) from theory (they were totems).<br /><br />You were quick off the mark to suggest something about Salisbury Plain is not sympathetic to trees. We might equally well presume that the Plain has been exploited by humans since the mesolithic and therefore the wild wood disappeared earlier than, say, north nottinghamshire. Still this leaves the question, why salisbury plain and not sherwood forest?<br /><br />You are also quick off the mark about farming and domestication of animals. There is little evidence for fixed farmsteads and fields on Salisbury Plain prior to Bronze/Iron ages. My suspicion is that crop growing was much more opportunistic in this area during the neolithic - sow some barley in a good looking patch of ground and return some months later to harvest. Clearing and fertilizing ground for farming is very hard work, as is farming itself.<br /><br />Making a long barrow demonstrates a connection to a locality and an intention to return. It does not mean that you are starting a farm.chris johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16210890033354730381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-26273480934133062082012-05-14T09:07:28.046+01:002012-05-14T09:07:28.046+01:00Pleased to hear your connection is restored, and t...Pleased to hear your connection is restored, and that I'm not on the naughty step. It's this heterogeneity at both ends - Stonehenge and Preseli - that bothers me. I expect you have heard of what in probability theory is called the Birthday Problem.<br /><br />Anyway, thank you for you time and patience. I shall go away, finish reading your book, as well as the National Heritage guide I bought at the visitor bookshop. <br /><br />Incidentally, nothwithstanding your comment re the pollen from hazel and pine the latter does not say that Salisbury Plain itself was well-wooded at any time, quite the contrary in fact if one reads the entry to the very end. Here's the relevant passage(my italics): <br /><br /><b>Before Stonehenge</b><br /><br />Stonehenge was not the first structure to be part on this part of Salisbury Plain. Excavations carried out in 1966 and 1989 in the area of the present car park revealed four large pits, all of which showed convincing evidence that they had originally held large timber posts of about 75cm (30in) in diameter. The wood that was used for the posts was identified as pine – an unusual tree to be found on chalk soils – but the date of the posts was even more unexpected. Radiocarbon dating showed that this was between 8500 and 7000 BC in a period known as the Mesolithic, or Middle Stone Age. This was not long after the end of the last Ice Age, when Britain was still connected to mainland Europe.<br />As sea levels rose in the warming climate, trees grew: initially pine and hazel. Within this forest, in river valleys and on seashores, bands of hunters and gatherers lived on wild foods. It was these people who raised the posts, perhaps best interpreted as poles of the kind found on North American sites, commonly known as totem poles. These structures, more than 9,000 years old and built so close to Stonehenge, are unique. There is nothing else like them in the British Isles from this ancient time.<br />Several thousand years later, by about 4000BC, people had begun to tame the wildwood – the mixed forest of elm, oak and hazel that had replaced the earlier pine forests over much of mainland Britain. Using stone axes to fell trees and fires to create clearings they opened up spaces in which they could farm. Unlike farming today, with its large fields and neat hedges, small cleared areas were carved out of the woods to grow cereals such as wheat and barley; there were also domesticated animals; cattle, pigs and sheep.<br />Farming, even on a small scale, brings stability and ties people to the land; it was at this time, between about 4000 and 3000 BC, that communal efforts resulted in the building of the first ceremonial monuments and burial mounds. <i>Some upland chalk areas, like that around Stonehenge may have had more of these sites because they remained comparatively free of woodland.</i> The causeway enclosure known as Robin Hood’s Ball, to the northwest of Stonehenge, was built at this time, as were both Cursus monuments and probably most of the long barrows in the area."<br /><br />Maybe you know the writer. If so, I look forward to a clash of Titans...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-15111564176773310382012-05-14T08:51:30.680+01:002012-05-14T08:51:30.680+01:00Sorry -- my broadband has been out of action over ...Sorry -- my broadband has been out of action over the weekend. Now miraculously back on again! yes -- the book has been on sale at Stonehenge for some time. sells quite well -- so there must be more than a few people who have doubts about the Gospel According to St Thomas.......<br /><br />Colin -- I'm perfectly happy to see your theories in print or on the internet. My problems with it are (a) no evidence anywhere in the literature; (b) the fact that many of the bluestones HAVE been matched to specific sources, using pretty sophisticated techniques, and (c) there are more than 20 rock types contained within the "bluestone assemblage" -- including tuffs, rhyolites, several types of dolerite, and sandstones. You are not going to explain these away by reference to a set of mysterious and invisible dykes on Salisbury Plain...BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-11482391065683573102012-05-13T15:18:19.706+01:002012-05-13T15:18:19.706+01:00"Don't get me wrong Colin... etc".
..."Don't get me wrong Colin... etc". <br /><br />So is that your final word then Brian - or are you still willing to provide a shop window for a newbie's hypothesis that challenges the, er, bedrock assumptions of geology textbooks? <br /><br />(No need to publish this if/when you approve the comment(s) I submitted earlier, which at the time of writing have still to appear...)sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-34104089503654295102012-05-12T17:01:58.541+01:002012-05-12T17:01:58.541+01:00Have just this minute got back from Stonehenge. Br...Have just this minute got back from Stonehenge. Brian's <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d5ueg9Lcgdk/T66HESMF_WI/AAAAAAAABsM/lLlH3qJa3Fg/s1600/brian+john+book+in+Stonehenge+visitor+centre.JPG" rel="nofollow">"Bluestone Enigma" </a>is on sale in the visitors' shop. I'd have bought a copy, but had already ordered one from Amazon, which handily was waiting on the door mat when I got back.sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-28722756641461407292012-05-12T09:18:03.550+01:002012-05-12T09:18:03.550+01:00OK, Brian, but let's not forget that geology t...OK, Brian, but let's not forget that geology textbooks were written long after Stone Age man had raided all the honey pot collections - especially surface igneous rocks lying east of Bristol - like the ones that were best for tool-making - and later scattered far and wide across the landscape...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-41335535783073064902012-05-12T08:54:56.885+01:002012-05-12T08:54:56.885+01:00I'm sure you'll let us know if you make an...I'm sure you'll let us know if you make any exciting geological discoveries which will lead to a rewriting of the geology text books.....BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-50237944053183419622012-05-12T08:00:21.575+01:002012-05-12T08:00:21.575+01:00Looking where the light is?
Looking where the li...<a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2076050/Stonehenge-Has-mystery-stones-origin-solved.html" rel="nofollow"> Looking where the light is? </a><br /><br />Looking where the light is?<br /><br />“Late at night, a police officer finds a drunk man crawling around on his hands and knees under a streetlight. The drunk man tells the officer he’s looking for his wallet. When the officer asks if he’s sure this is where he dropped the wallet, the man replies that he thinks he more likely dropped it across the street. Then why are you looking over here? the befuddled officer asks. Because the light’s better here, explains the drunk man.”<br /><br />PS: Haven't seen Stonehenge and Salisbury Plain in some 25 years - so am heading off there in an hour or two to renew the acquaintance. Who knows? I may spot some prime rhyolite sticking out the ground that our flint-picking ancestors overlooked in the course of some 10,000 years of scavenging... ;-)sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-71048798655081282592012-05-11T21:53:53.715+01:002012-05-11T21:53:53.715+01:00Correction (last sentence): "from a rare loca...Correction (last sentence): "<i>from</i> a rare local outcrop"sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-76333227283146297002012-05-11T19:34:52.548+01:002012-05-11T19:34:52.548+01:00"If there were any igneous intrusions on Sali..."If there were any igneous intrusions on Salisbury Plain, don't you think somebody might have noticed? "<br /><br />Not if the above-ground intrusions had been thoroughly harvested, Brian, over the course of millennia for their harder-than-granite "local" dolerite, which may have been petrologically similar if not identical to the Preseli product (what's a mere 130 miles in geological terms?)<br /><br />The base of the outcrops would probably have been excavated to get out as much of the accessible tool-making rock as possible, and then have been back-filled with spoil. In time those "scars on the landscape" would have created a better micro-environment for the growth of deeper-rooted species of trees, an oasis of moisture/mineral salt-retaining fertility in an otherwise porous chalk subsoil. <br /><br /> The backfill may have been thin topsoil only, easy to scoop up, possibly admixed with human and/or animal bones, but with sufficient fertility over the surrounding hard pan of chalk to create circular (sacred Druidical?) groves of trees - like the one that is close to Stonehenge. <br /><br />Has there been systematic boring into the chalk surrounding Stonehenge within a 10 or 20 mile radius to check whether it is really uninvaded chalk? These putative subterranean igneous intrusions can penetrate anywhere and everywhere, can they not? Who's to say that Stonehenge was not constructed for a rare local outcrop?sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-29040985484690315462012-05-11T18:55:53.872+01:002012-05-11T18:55:53.872+01:00Colin -- please do some reading on geology. Every...Colin -- please do some reading on geology. Every dolerite is different, and geologists (well, some of them!) spend their time working out the whys and the wherefores. There are indeed many other igneous extrusives and intrusives all over Britain -- they are generally well known and well mapped. If there were any igneous intrusions on Salisbury Plain, don't you think somebody might have noticed? There are igneous rocks around the Mendips, but even the early geologists knew that those were different from the Stonehenge bluestones, and different from the dolerites and rhyolites of eastern Preseli.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-13983345327806304742012-05-11T17:02:07.246+01:002012-05-11T17:02:07.246+01:00We're told there are just two working hypothes...We're told there are just two working hypotheses regarding the bluestones, Tony - both involving transport from west Wales. I suspect there is a third ("in situ") hypothesis that needs to be investigated - or should that be re-investigated? Ever heard of a plutons and dikes? Maybe the tors of Dartmoor are a model, albeit a lot older and more eroded. <br /><br />Who says that spotted dolerite is unique to west Wales? Who says that intrusive igneous rocks only get exposed in SW England by surface erosion on Dartmoor and west Wales? Dikes can in principle make their way - and finally protrude above the surface - anywhere...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-64739702952144990742012-05-11T16:44:33.040+01:002012-05-11T16:44:33.040+01:00Interesting tip Tony. In a couple of minutes brow...Interesting tip Tony. In a couple of minutes browsing I found a quote from Russell Wright, conservation officer for English Nature in Wiltshire, 'Without the military it would have been wall-to-wall barley".<br /><br />Also amazing was the discovery of a mountain of sheep bones - some 500000 animals thought to have been consumed in feasting - and covering 2.5 hectares. Some barbecue!chris johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16210890033354730381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-42383677684637009842012-05-11T14:25:57.486+01:002012-05-11T14:25:57.486+01:00A good starting point, at least via the Internet, ...A good starting point, at least via the Internet, is to Google ROY CANHAM and SALISBURY PLAIN, to learn more about The Plain and its archaeological features and something of the terrain in general.<br /><br />Lots of references to the former Wiltshire County Archaeologist, Roy, and his work in coordinating with The Army to bring about far greater conservation of the Ancient Monuments & other archaeological features on The Plain [for which he was awarded the M.B.E.] wii show up. Roy is still enthusiastic and active in rtetirement, rather like Preseli's equivalent expert, at least in physical geographical terms, Brian. You will see, for instance, that Roy leads an archaeological walk on The Plain every year in April/May. These can be booked via Devizes Museum.Tony Hinchliffenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-86052387928028198962012-05-10T18:59:37.828+01:002012-05-10T18:59:37.828+01:00Methinks it took more than shells and tank tracks,...Methinks it took more than shells and tank tracks, Brian, to create the <a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yX-1uaf59cY/T6vunrHFoiI/AAAAAAAABq8/QijyJK4Rr1o/s320/google+earth+1+salisbury+plain+CROPPED.png" rel="nofollow">satellite photo: vast butterfly-shaped area</a> we call Salisbury Plain. The answer loys in the soy-ul...such as there is...sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-71125072725123638922012-05-10T18:35:34.655+01:002012-05-10T18:35:34.655+01:00Try blaming the Army, Colin!! They have been in po...Try blaming the Army, Colin!! They have been in possession a very long time, blasting hell out of it and roaring around in tanks....BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-87883386012550781522012-05-10T18:12:06.001+01:002012-05-10T18:12:06.001+01:00Hiya Chris
I've just been doing some screen g...Hiya Chris<br /><br />I've just been doing some screen grabs of Google Earth pictures of Salisbury Plain. Since Blogger does not allow me to insert them into comments I have created a post for them on my <a href="http://colinb-sciencebuzz.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/why-is-salisbury-plain-so-steppe-like.html" rel="nofollow">sciencebuzz site</a>, the first in several months.<br /><br />Nope, Salisbury Plain, home to Stonehenge, is not a desert,far from it, but is curiously steppe-like in my view, now Google-supported. But why? And does its strange character have any bearing on the transport of glacial erratics?<br /><br />I shall now wait for Brian's book to arrive before proffering any more ideas (freely acknowledging that the present ones I've expressed courtesy of someone else's blog may seem half or even quarter-baked in a week or two).sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-78080934848824792852012-05-10T15:39:41.627+01:002012-05-10T15:39:41.627+01:00Colin, I never noticed a shortage of trees per-se ...Colin, I never noticed a shortage of trees per-se around Stonehenge - Grovely Woods, Vespasians Camp, and Amesbury itself have plenty of trees which seem to be doing nicely thank you. There are lots of plains, too, but I always attributed this to grazing and farming over thousands of years - recently the sheep evidenced in many old drawings. Still I would be very interested to learn more from you about this soil problem.<br /><br />I notice in general some naiveté about how quickly forests are created when left to themselves and what they might look like. The "Wild Wood" is supposed to have covered 90% of Britain by the start of the Neolithic and was the result of several thousand years of self-development. Once a stand of trees is cut down and the roots have died it will take a long time to recreate the same effect naturally unless the forestry is actively managed - which it wasn't until much later. After WW1 95% of Britain was treeless and it did not have much to do with soil conditions.<br /><br />In the Neolithic there seems to have been a relative abundance of big oak trees in the area, judging from the evidence for wooden monuments. I remember reading that some trunks at Avebury weighed as much as an average bluestone - maybe something else to consider before you write off human transport completely.chris johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16210890033354730381noreply@blogger.com