tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post1958692630732689373..comments2024-03-28T00:46:01.084+00:00Comments on Stonehenge and the Ice Age: The First Circle of Stonehenge -- reviewBRIAN JOHNhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-64972809284095712942021-11-12T21:41:49.353+00:002021-11-12T21:41:49.353+00:00Hi all. I seem to have woken up some reviewers of ...Hi all. I seem to have woken up some reviewers of Brian’s excellent Blog. So let me say this. First off, when it comes to human transport versus Brian’s glacial theory, I sit firmly on the fence.<br />Furthermore, nothing coming out of an archaeologist’s mouth since 1965 can be believed. That is a proven fact. <br />As far as I can see, no independent individual (Who is David?) is ever allowed to verify archaeologist’s results. <br />Can anyone prove that a sarsen orthostat was dragged from West Wood to Stonehenge? No!<br />Does anyone other than an archaeologist have proof that a sample had been taken from that stone, not years ago, but a sample specially drilled out to add to the present surfeit of mysteries? No. And should archaeologists be allowed to drill a few more stones in secret to prove what they say? No!<br />Has a trench, verified or not, been dug across the cursus to show that the striations do in fact cross it? No!<br />Despite it all, it is my opinion that a sarsen was dragged along the Avon valley -- I have driven along it enough times on my way to Stonehenge. But hey! What do I know? None of us are privy to such information. Let’s form a union!<br />On the solstice alignment of postulated Mawn Waun. They say that two of its stones were turned 90-degrees to mark it. Well, two stones leaving or entering Avebury’s Sanctuary are also rotated 90-degrees, but they don’t seem to point at anything other than the Avenue.<br />Tom Flowersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-65239475185135336602021-11-12T20:01:09.319+00:002021-11-12T20:01:09.319+00:00Jon - I have a mindset that is based upon my train...Jon - I have a mindset that is based upon my training as an Information Librarian. I carefully read a great deal of what Brian puts on this Blog. I also used to be in direct communication with Rob Ixer. I have worked in local government information, and also more specifically for a Welsh local government environmental planning department where I also used my Geography degree background; also that same Welsh authority's architect's department. I have also prioritised visiting the Stonehenge Visitor Centre in order to purchase the Stonehenge Landscape....World Heritage Site English Heritage book recently. I now have 3 books part - authored by English Heritage Field Archaeologist David Field who I have also talked to during a Salisbury Plain walk and at WANHS talks. Similarly, I have been on Salisbury Plain walks with Julian Richards; also with my former Libraries & Museums colleague and friend Roy Canham, MBE, both on WANHS walks AND on inspections of Salisbury Plain MOD SPTA Conservation Group visits.Tony Hinchliffenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-81954483711280061272021-11-12T12:52:35.721+00:002021-11-12T12:52:35.721+00:00We aren't really going to have any progress on...We aren't really going to have any progress on the West Woods debate until David has done much more sampling in the Stonehenge environment, and much more sampling in West Woods in order to establish the variability in sarsen geochemistry in that neighbourhood.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-30054578311682801512021-11-11T23:50:02.959+00:002021-11-11T23:50:02.959+00:00Re: West Wood sarsens.
I don't know, fellers, ...Re: West Wood sarsens.<br />I don't know, fellers, the chemistry seems pretty solid to me. My conversations with Dr Nash lean heavily toward confirmation. Rob and Richard are also as convinced as anyone can be.<br /><br />But remember: there's still 2 SH Sarsens that have yet to be provenanced, except to say they did Not come from West Woods. So maybe Tony's thoughts on the MOD lands are in the running.<br />That said, even Dartmoor is possible -- so who knows.<br />ND Wisemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925248433335448747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-2221446571290164422021-11-11T22:27:09.774+00:002021-11-11T22:27:09.774+00:00Jon -- there is nothing certain about any of this....Jon -- there is nothing certain about any of this. Tony is quite right to question the West Woods assumptions -- because that is exactly what Ixer and Bevins have done in their 2021 paper on the sarsens.<br />https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2021/08/stonehenge-sarsens-from-here-there-and.htmlBRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-1252328649449982032021-11-11T20:54:25.573+00:002021-11-11T20:54:25.573+00:00"We DO NOT KNOW that them thar sarsen beasts ...<i>"We DO NOT KNOW that them thar sarsen beasts did in fact all come from West Woods for sure, DESPITE what the Brighton - based scientist is now claiming"</i><br /><br />Have you read the papers? Looks solid to me. Danger of conflating stuff that is certain with stuff that's just speculation.Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-46091339397795631462021-11-11T17:38:15.525+00:002021-11-11T17:38:15.525+00:00In my opinion, the notion that what Neil describes...In my opinion, the notion that what Neil describes as "a 25 - ton stone being dragged across the ground for 20 miles" is another case of how Stonehenge mysteries end up being explained by myths. We DO NOT KNOW that them thar sarsen beasts did in fact all come from West Woods for sure, DESPITE what the Brighton - based scientist is now claiming. I recommend you all read carefully " The Stonehenge Landscape: analysing the Stonehenge World Heritage Site", 2015, by David Field & Messrs Bowden, Soutar & Barber, English Heritage. David Field in particular knows intimately the physical geography of the MOD - controlled Salisbury Plain army SPTA. Plenty of evidence at of the existence of sizeable sarsens in historic times.Tony Hinchliffenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-26380311555409731652021-11-11T17:15:00.471+00:002021-11-11T17:15:00.471+00:00Here is the link:
https://landscapeandmonumentali...Here is the link:<br /><br />https://landscapeandmonumentality.wordpress.com/2021/04/05/the-quest-for-the-origins-of-stonehenge-part-iii/BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-52385557102028012042021-11-11T17:14:37.023+00:002021-11-11T17:14:37.023+00:00Thanks Jon -- yes the review on "Landscape an...Thanks Jon -- yes the review on "Landscape and Monumentality' is not exactly flattering. The author (who makes many of the same points as me) says at the end "Finding Bigfoot is more convincing." Spot on.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-62292408788092085032021-11-11T16:42:59.411+00:002021-11-11T16:42:59.411+00:00Aye. Ritual is a fun word used to explain any theo...Aye. Ritual is a fun word used to explain any theory that doesn't actually make any sense (to people living today). Only mentioned it because the idea of transporting stuff for the sake of transporting stuff (using the explanation that the journey was more important than the destination) seems to be cropping up quite a bit.<br /><br />There's another review of this doco here:<br />https://landscapeandmonumentality.wordpress.com/2021/11/10/the-first-circle-of-stonehenge/Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-5070153825841339392021-11-11T13:20:05.308+00:002021-11-11T13:20:05.308+00:00Jon
The act of arduously transporting big honking ...Jon<br />The act of arduously transporting big honking stones across miles of uneven terrain may well have attained a kind of ritual stature, yes, but I'm pretty sure they didn't do it for fun or competition.<br /><br />The remark was intended to illustrate that the grooves in the Avenue could not have been made by the corner of a stone being dragged. Of course they obviously used some kind of mechanism like a sledge on rollers or some such.<br /><br />Furthermore, I'm not at all committed to the idea that the future Avenue was used for stone transport at all. It's pointed in the wrong direction for one thing. Overall ground contours tend to persuade that the easiest approach would have been from more directly north.ND Wisemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925248433335448747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-46526738928767463282021-11-11T10:28:20.263+00:002021-11-11T10:28:20.263+00:00"Now tell me how logical it would be to physi...<i>"Now tell me how logical it would be to physically drag a 25-ton stone along the ground for twenty miles"</i><br /><br />A Ceremonial procession where the act of dragging has a ritual importance? <br /><br />Something like that cropped up in the doco. Imagine it's post processual thinking.Jon Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11264966739582178631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-87030562855363856382021-11-11T10:02:14.151+00:002021-11-11T10:02:14.151+00:00This nonsense perpetrated by Messrs Parker Pearson...This nonsense perpetrated by Messrs Parker Pearson & Co.UK & USA about " discovering" the first circle of Stonehenge in SW Wales is akin to the depth of thinking necessary to convince folk of the existence of ley lines.Tony Hinchliffenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-72298752446094340532021-11-10T23:07:34.218+00:002021-11-10T23:07:34.218+00:00Thank you folks. Neil -- good to hear from you ag...Thank you folks. Neil -- good to hear from you again! And glad that we seem to agree on that TV programme and the dangers of looking at everything through the Stonehenge lense ........BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-80594981474686816162021-11-10T22:38:19.725+00:002021-11-10T22:38:19.725+00:00I photographed the avenue dig extensively and nowh...I photographed the avenue dig extensively and nowhere do the striations turn right.<br />PeteGPeteGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06602290459387947074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-35553036409180017812021-11-10T18:19:20.261+00:002021-11-10T18:19:20.261+00:00Hi gang -- me again, popping in from lurker status...Hi gang -- me again, popping in from lurker status.<br /><br />Dear Tom, we've had these conversations before; please don't make me get out of this chair.<br />The vaunted striations along the Stonehenge Avenue are naturally occurring and were created long before there were any people in the area. Probably not glacial, I believe they were created by maybe centuries of freezing, thawing and represent erosion from permafrost meltwater runoff. Anyone who's stood on that sloped approach cannot fail to reach the same conclusion.<br /><br />I've heard the 'Stone Dragging' argument a number of times, but here's the real story. There is, in fact, a set of rutted wagon tracks on the west side of the Avenue. These were created by a practical farm-to-market shortcut from Larkhill to Normanton, as there was no direct route by road. Look at any aerial of the Henge in dry season and you'll clearly see the trail emerge from the Avenue, skirt the Stones below the North Barrow and blend into the old south-bound Byway-12 trackway. These ruts are unrelated to the natural striations.<br /><br />Now tell me how logical it would be to physically drag a 25-ton stone along the ground for twenty miles. This would be a fine example of gross, back-breaking inefficiency. Except for the wagon tracks, no combination of gouged patterns are the same width apart, each wandering slightly right or left according to small differences in the lumpy chalk bed. So no sledges either.<br /><br />Also, the Cursus side of the stripes and the Stonehenge section both descend into Stonehenge Bottom where runoff created that now-dry river or lake. These are two discrete pattern-sets unrelated to each other. Dragged or sledged stone would create even stripes along the entire length.<br /><br />They are all roughly the same depth. If I were transporting a large series of extremely awkward stones, I would want to use the same ruts my father and grandfather did. These smooth, generational scours would be clearly detectable as human-made to the exclusion of all other explanations, but they don't exist.<br />______________________<br />Okay -- on to the TV show. It's the same program that was presented the year before, minus a gushing Alice Roberts. I wonder why that is ... American consumption?<br /><br />Professionally, Brian and I agree on very little. However, on the matter of this television broadcast we do agree on many of the same points.<br /><br />Mawn Waun is not shown to be a circle. If it Is a circle, its diameter is Not the same as the Stonehenge ditch diameter and wishful thinking cannot make it so.<br />The Bluestones of which it was comprised could have come from anywhere, and could have wound up anywhere.<br />There were never 56 of them, and though it's possible the remainder might have been culled from elsewhere, why would any be left behind? Those remainders are easily equal in quality to the crappy 1st-gen Blues on the Plain.<br />The similarly shaped hole that resembles the base of BS-62 is definitely interesting but hardly conclusive. The commonly seen angular shape of these pipes all begin to look the same after a while.<br />Is that really a solstice alignment? And if it is, so what? They try to make it sound as though this site and Stonehenge were the only places this occurred. Perhaps you can imagine my response to that!<br /><br />I also take issue with the conviction with which the conclusion is presented. It's an interesting site, situated in an important location, but to convince me it's the source of the Stonehenge Bluestones will take a little more real evidence than we've been given.<br /><br />Best,<br />NeilND Wisemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925248433335448747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-26881725234613740292021-11-10T08:54:01.835+00:002021-11-10T08:54:01.835+00:00I don't agree with you, Tom. My interpretatio...I don't agree with you, Tom. My interpretation of those features is contained in a number of posts on this blog.BRIAN JOHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00413447032454568083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228690739485734684.post-84442800982556408452021-11-10T05:48:54.345+00:002021-11-10T05:48:54.345+00:00The striations in the Avenue leading up to Stonehe...The striations in the Avenue leading up to Stonehenge are not periglacial. Respecting the 50-degree axis of Stonehenge, those striations were caused by the transport of sarsens. Professor Wolfgang of the Neubauer Ludwig Boltzmann Institute Archpro, proved this when he found that the striations make a turn at Stonehenge Bottom to head for the Avon valley at Hackthorn. “Operation Stonehenge. What lies Beneath Part 2. BBC Friday 10 Nov 2017.” <br />So, MPP should have made more of these striations to figure out what really made them -- and how. Or perhaps we should ask Phil Harding, who quietly stood aside when MPP uncovered them, and said nothing!<br />Tom Flowersnoreply@blogger.com